PTS cs 6 The king said: ‘Is there, Nāgasena, such a thing as the soul ?’
‘What is this, O king, the soul (Vedagu)?’
‘The living principle within which sees forms through the eye, hears sounds through the ear, experiences tastes through the tongue, smells odours through the nose, feels touch through the body, and discerns things (conditions, “dhammā") through the mind—just as we, sitting here in the palace, can look out of any window out of which we wish to look, the east window or the west, or the north or the south.’
The Elder replied: ‘I will tell you about the five PTS vp En 87 doors, great king. Listen, and give heed attentively. If the living principle within sees forms through the eye in the manner that you mention, PTS vp Pali 55 choosing its window as it likes, can it not then see forms not only through the eye, but also through each of the other five organs of sense? And in like manner can it not then as well hear sounds, and experience taste, and smell odours, and feel touch, and discern conditions through each of the other five organs of sense, besides the one you have in each case specified?’
‘No, Sir.’
‘Then these powers are not united one to another indiscriminately, the latter sense to the former organ, and so on. Now we, as we are seated here in the palace, with these windows all thrown open, and in full daylight, if we only stretch forth our heads, see all kinds of objects plainly. Can the living principle do the same when the doors of the eyes are thrown open? When the doors of the ear are thrown open, can it do so? Can it then not only hear sounds, but see sights, experience tastes, smell odours, feel touch, and discern conditions? And so with each of its windows?’
‘No, Sir.’
PTS vp Pali 56 ‘Then these powers are not united one to another indiscriminately. Now again, great king, if Dinna here were to go outside and stand in the gateway, would you be aware that he had done so?’
‘Yes, I should know it.’
‘And if the same Dinna were to come back again, and stand before you, would you be aware of his having done so?’ PTS vp En 88
‘Yes, I should know it.’
‘Well, great king, would the living principle within discern, in like manner, if anything possessing flavour were laid upon the tongue, its sourness, or its saltness, or its acidity, or its pungency, or its astringency, or its sweetness ?’
‘Yes, it would know it.’
‘But when the flavour had passed into the stomach would it still discern these things?’
‘Certainly not.’
‘Then these powers are not united one to the other indiscriminately. Now suppose, O king, a man were to have a hundred vessels of honey brought and poured into one trough, and then, having had another man’s mouth closed over and tied up, were to have him cast into the trough full of honey. Would he know whether that into which he had been thrown was sweet or whether it was not?’
‘No, Sir.’
‘But why not?’
‘Because the honey could not get into his mouth.’
‘Then, great king, these powers are not united one to another indiscriminately.’
‘I am not capable of discussing with such a reasoner. Be pleased, Sir, to explain to me how the matter stands.’
Then the Elder convinced Milinda the king with discourse drawn from the Abhidhamma, saying: ‘It is by reason, O king, of the eye and of forms that sight arises, and those other conditions—contact, PTS vp En 89 sensation, idea, thought, abstraction, sense of vitality, and attention —arise each simultaneously with its predecessor. And a similar succession of cause and effect arises when each of the other five organs of sense is brought into play. PTS vp Pali 57 And so herein there is no such thing as soul (Vedagu).’
6. Vedagūpañha
6. Vedagūpañha
Rājā āha—“bhante nāgasena, vedagū upalabbhatī”ti? “Ko panesa, mahārāja, vedagū nāmā”ti? “Yo, bhante, abbhantare jīvo cakkhunā rūpaṁ passati, sotena saddaṁ suṇāti, ghānena gandhaṁ ghāyati, jivhāya rasaṁ sāyati, kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṁ phusati, manasā dhammaṁ vijānāti, yathā mayaṁ idha pāsāde nisinnā yena yena vātapānena iccheyyāma passituṁ, tena tena vātapānena passeyyāma, puratthimenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, pacchimenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, uttarenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, dakkhiṇenapi vātapānena passeyyāma. Evameva kho, bhante, ayaṁ abbhantare jīvo yena yena dvārena icchati passituṁ, tena tena dvārena passatī”ti.
“bhante nāgasena, vedagū upalabbhatī”ti?
“Ko panesa, mahārāja, vedagū nāmā”ti?
“Yo, bhante, abbhantare jīvo cakkhunā rūpaṁ passati, sotena saddaṁ suṇāti, ghānena gandhaṁ ghāyati, jivhāya rasaṁ sāyati, kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṁ phusati, manasā dhammaṁ vijānāti, yathā mayaṁ idha pāsāde nisinnā yena yena vātapānena iccheyyāma passituṁ, tena tena vātapānena passeyyāma, puratthimenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, pacchimenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, uttarenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, dakkhiṇenapi vātapānena passeyyāma.
Evameva kho, bhante, ayaṁ abbhantare jīvo yena yena dvārena icchati passituṁ, tena tena dvārena passatī”ti.
Rājā āha—“bhante nāgasena, vedagū upalabbhatī”ti? “Ko panesa, mahārāja, vedagū nāmā”ti? “Yo, bhante, abbhantare jīvo cakkhunā rūpaṁ passati, sotena saddaṁ suṇāti, ghānena gandhaṁ ghāyati, jivhāya rasaṁ sāyati, kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṁ phusati, manasā dhammaṁ vijānāti, yathā mayaṁ idha pāsāde nisinnā yena yena vātapānena iccheyyāma passituṁ, tena tena vātapānena passeyyāma, puratthimenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, pacchimenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, uttarenapi vātapānena passeyyāma, dakkhiṇenapi vātapānena passeyyāma. Evameva kho, bhante, ayaṁ abbhantare jīvo yena yena dvārena icchati passituṁ, tena tena dvārena passatī”ti.
Thero āha—“pañcadvāraṁ, mahārāja, bhaṇissāmi, taṁ suṇohi, sādhukaṁ manasikarohi, yadi abbhantare jīvo cakkhunā rūpaṁ passati, yathā mayaṁ idha pāsāde nisinnā yena yena vātapānena iccheyyāma passituṁ, tena tena vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, puratthimenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, pacchimenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, uttarenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, dakkhiṇenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, evametena abbhantare jīvena sotenapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, ghānenapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, jivhāyapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, kāyenapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, manasāpi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ; cakkhunāpi saddoyeva sotabbo, ghānenapi saddoyeva sotabbo, jivhāyapi saddoyeva sotabbo, kāyenapi saddoyeva sotabbo, manasāpi saddoyeva sotabbo; cakkhunāpi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, sotenapi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, jivhāyapi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, kāyenapi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, manasāpi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo; cakkhunāpi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, sotenapi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, ghānenapi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, kāyenapi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, manasāpi rasoyeva sāyitabbo; cakkhunāpi phoṭṭhabbaṁyeva phusitabbaṁ, sotenapi phoṭṭhabbaṁ yeva phusitabbaṁ, ghānenapi phoṭṭhabbaṁyeva phusitabbaṁ, jivhāyapi phoṭṭhabbaṁ yeva phusitabbaṁ, manasāpi phoṭṭhabbaṁyeva phusitabbaṁ; cakkhunāpi dhammaṁ yeva vijānitabbaṁ, sotenapi dhammaṁyeva vijānitabbaṁ, ghānenapi dhammaṁ yeva vijānitabbaṁ, jivhāyapi dhammaṁyeva vijānitabbaṁ, kāyenapi dhammaṁyeva vijānitabban”ti? “Na hi, bhante”ti.
“pañcadvāraṁ, mahārāja, bhaṇissāmi, taṁ suṇohi, sādhukaṁ manasikarohi, yadi abbhantare jīvo cakkhunā rūpaṁ passati, yathā mayaṁ idha pāsāde nisinnā yena yena vātapānena iccheyyāma passituṁ, tena tena vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, puratthimenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, pacchimenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, uttarenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, dakkhiṇenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, evametena abbhantare jīvena sotenapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, ghānenapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, jivhāyapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, kāyenapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, manasāpi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ;
cakkhunāpi saddoyeva sotabbo, ghānenapi saddoyeva sotabbo, jivhāyapi saddoyeva sotabbo, kāyenapi saddoyeva sotabbo, manasāpi saddoyeva sotabbo;
cakkhunāpi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, sotenapi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, jivhāyapi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, kāyenapi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, manasāpi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo;
cakkhunāpi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, sotenapi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, ghānenapi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, kāyenapi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, manasāpi rasoyeva sāyitabbo;
cakkhunāpi phoṭṭhabbaṁyeva phusitabbaṁ, sotenapi phoṭṭhabbaṁ yeva phusitabbaṁ, ghānenapi phoṭṭhabbaṁyeva phusitabbaṁ, jivhāyapi phoṭṭhabbaṁ yeva phusitabbaṁ, manasāpi phoṭṭhabbaṁyeva phusitabbaṁ;
cakkhunāpi dhammaṁ yeva vijānitabbaṁ, sotenapi dhammaṁyeva vijānitabbaṁ, ghānenapi dhammaṁ yeva vijānitabbaṁ, jivhāyapi dhammaṁyeva vijānitabbaṁ, kāyenapi dhammaṁyeva vijānitabban”ti?
Thero āha—“pañcadvāraṁ, mahārāja, bhaṇissāmi, taṁ suṇohi, sādhukaṁ manasikarohi, yadi abbhantare jīvo cakkhunā rūpaṁ passati, yathā mayaṁ idha pāsāde nisinnā yena yena vātapānena iccheyyāma passituṁ, tena tena vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, puratthimenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, pacchimenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, uttarenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, dakkhiṇenapi vātapānena rūpaṁyeva passeyyāma, evametena abbhantare jīvena sotenapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, ghānenapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, jivhāyapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, kāyenapi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ, manasāpi rūpaṁyeva passitabbaṁ; cakkhunāpi saddoyeva sotabbo, ghānenapi saddoyeva sotabbo, jivhāyapi saddoyeva sotabbo, kāyenapi saddoyeva sotabbo, manasāpi saddoyeva sotabbo; cakkhunāpi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, sotenapi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, jivhāyapi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, kāyenapi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo, manasāpi gandhoyeva ghāyitabbo; cakkhunāpi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, sotenapi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, ghānenapi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, kāyenapi rasoyeva sāyitabbo, manasāpi rasoyeva sāyitabbo; cakkhunāpi phoṭṭhabbaṁyeva phusitabbaṁ, sotenapi phoṭṭhabbaṁ yeva phusitabbaṁ, ghānenapi phoṭṭhabbaṁyeva phusitabbaṁ, jivhāyapi phoṭṭhabbaṁ yeva phusitabbaṁ, manasāpi phoṭṭhabbaṁyeva phusitabbaṁ; cakkhunāpi dhammaṁ yeva vijānitabbaṁ, sotenapi dhammaṁyeva vijānitabbaṁ, ghānenapi dhammaṁ yeva vijānitabbaṁ, jivhāyapi dhammaṁyeva vijānitabbaṁ, kāyenapi dhammaṁyeva vijānitabban”ti? “Na hi, bhante”ti.
“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ, yathā vā pana, mahārāja, mayaṁ idha pāsāde nisinnā imesu jālavātapānesu ugghāṭitesu mahantena ākāsena bahimukhā suṭṭhutaraṁ rūpaṁ passāma, evametena abbhantare jīvenāpi cakkhudvāresu ugghāṭitesu mahantena ākāsena suṭṭhutaraṁ rūpaṁ passitabbaṁ, sotesu ugghāṭitesu … ghāne ugghāṭite … jivhāya ugghāṭitāya … kāye ugghāṭite mahantena ākāsena suṭṭhutaraṁ saddo sotabbo, gandho ghāyitabbo, raso sāyitabbo, phoṭṭhabbo phusitabbo”ti? “Na hi, bhante”ti.
“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ, yathā vā pana, mahārāja, mayaṁ idha pāsāde nisinnā imesu jālavātapānesu ugghāṭitesu mahantena ākāsena bahimukhā suṭṭhutaraṁ rūpaṁ passāma, evametena abbhantare jīvenāpi cakkhudvāresu ugghāṭitesu mahantena ākāsena suṭṭhutaraṁ rūpaṁ passitabbaṁ, sotesu ugghāṭitesu … ghāne ugghāṭite … jivhāya ugghāṭitāya … kāye ugghāṭite mahantena ākāsena suṭṭhutaraṁ saddo sotabbo, gandho ghāyitabbo, raso sāyitabbo, phoṭṭhabbo phusitabbo”ti?
“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ, yathā vā pana, mahārāja, mayaṁ idha pāsāde nisinnā imesu jālavātapānesu ugghāṭitesu mahantena ākāsena bahimukhā suṭṭhutaraṁ rūpaṁ passāma, evametena abbhantare jīvenāpi cakkhudvāresu ugghāṭitesu mahantena ākāsena suṭṭhutaraṁ rūpaṁ passitabbaṁ, sotesu ugghāṭitesu … ghāne ugghāṭite … jivhāya ugghāṭitāya … kāye ugghāṭite mahantena ākāsena suṭṭhutaraṁ saddo sotabbo, gandho ghāyitabbo, raso sāyitabbo, phoṭṭhabbo phusitabbo”ti? “Na hi, bhante”ti.
“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ, yathā vā pana, mahārāja, ayaṁ dinno nikkhamitvā bahidvārakoṭṭhake tiṭṭheyya, jānāsi tvaṁ, mahārāja, ‘ayaṁ dinno nikkhamitvā bahidvārakoṭṭhake ṭhito’”ti? “Āma, bhante, jānāmī”ti. “Yathā vā pana, mahārāja, ayaṁ dinno anto pavisitvā tava purato tiṭṭheyya, jānāsi tvaṁ, mahārāja, ‘ayaṁ dinno anto pavisitvā mama purato ṭhito’”ti? “Āma, bhante, jānāmī”ti. “Evameva kho, mahārāja, abbhantare so jīvo jivhāya rase nikkhitte jāneyya ambilattaṁ vā lavaṇattaṁ vā tittakattaṁ vā kaṭukattaṁ vā kasāyattaṁ vā madhurattaṁ vā”ti? “Āma, bhante, jāneyyā”ti. “Te rase anto paviṭṭhe jāneyya ambilattaṁ vā lavaṇattaṁ vā tittakattaṁ vā kaṭukattaṁ vā kasāyattaṁ vā madhurattaṁ vā”ti. “Na hi, bhante”ti.
“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ, yathā vā pana, mahārāja, ayaṁ dinno nikkhamitvā bahidvārakoṭṭhake tiṭṭheyya, jānāsi tvaṁ, mahārāja, ‘ayaṁ dinno nikkhamitvā bahidvārakoṭṭhake ṭhito’”ti?
“Yathā vā pana, mahārāja, ayaṁ dinno anto pavisitvā tava purato tiṭṭheyya, jānāsi tvaṁ, mahārāja, ‘ayaṁ dinno anto pavisitvā mama purato ṭhito’”ti?
“Evameva kho, mahārāja, abbhantare so jīvo jivhāya rase nikkhitte jāneyya ambilattaṁ vā lavaṇattaṁ vā tittakattaṁ vā kaṭukattaṁ vā kasāyattaṁ vā madhurattaṁ vā”ti?
“Āma, bhante, jāneyyā”ti.
“Te rase anto paviṭṭhe jāneyya ambilattaṁ vā lavaṇattaṁ vā tittakattaṁ vā kaṭukattaṁ vā kasāyattaṁ vā madhurattaṁ vā”ti.
“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ, yathā vā pana, mahārāja, ayaṁ dinno nikkhamitvā bahidvārakoṭṭhake tiṭṭheyya, jānāsi tvaṁ, mahārāja, ‘ayaṁ dinno nikkhamitvā bahidvārakoṭṭhake ṭhito’”ti? “Āma, bhante, jānāmī”ti. “Yathā vā pana, mahārāja, ayaṁ dinno anto pavisitvā tava purato tiṭṭheyya, jānāsi tvaṁ, mahārāja, ‘ayaṁ dinno anto pavisitvā mama purato ṭhito’”ti? “Āma, bhante, jānāmī”ti. “Evameva kho, mahārāja, abbhantare so jīvo jivhāya rase nikkhitte jāneyya ambilattaṁ vā lavaṇattaṁ vā tittakattaṁ vā kaṭukattaṁ vā kasāyattaṁ vā madhurattaṁ vā”ti? “Āma, bhante, jāneyyā”ti. “Te rase anto paviṭṭhe jāneyya ambilattaṁ vā lavaṇattaṁ vā tittakattaṁ vā kaṭukattaṁ vā kasāyattaṁ vā madhurattaṁ vā”ti. “Na hi, bhante”ti.
“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ, yathā, mahārāja, kocideva puriso madhughaṭasataṁ āharāpetvā madhudoṇiṁ pūrāpetvā purisassa mukhaṁ pidahitvā madhudoṇiyā pakkhipeyya, jāneyya, mahārāja, so puriso madhuṁ sampannaṁ vā na sampannaṁ vā”ti? *pidahitvā → pidahitvāva (mr)“Na hi, bhante”ti. “Kena kāraṇenā”ti? “Na hi tassa, bhante, mukhe madhu paviṭṭhan”ti.
“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ, yathā, mahārāja, kocideva puriso madhughaṭasataṁ āharāpetvā madhudoṇiṁ pūrāpetvā purisassa mukhaṁ pidahitvā madhudoṇiyā pakkhipeyya, jāneyya, mahārāja, so puriso madhuṁ sampannaṁ vā na sampannaṁ vā”ti? *pidahitvā → pidahitvāva (mr)
“Na hi tassa, bhante, mukhe madhu paviṭṭhan”ti.
“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā purimaṁ, yathā, mahārāja, kocideva puriso madhughaṭasataṁ āharāpetvā madhudoṇiṁ pūrāpetvā purisassa mukhaṁ pidahitvā madhudoṇiyā pakkhipeyya, jāneyya, mahārāja, so puriso madhuṁ sampannaṁ vā na sampannaṁ vā”ti? *pidahitvā → pidahitvāva (mr)“Na hi, bhante”ti. “Kena kāraṇenā”ti? “Na hi tassa, bhante, mukhe madhu paviṭṭhan”ti.
“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā puriman”ti. “Nāhaṁ paṭibalo tayā vādinā saddhiṁ sallapituṁ; sādhu, bhante, atthaṁ jappehī”ti.
“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā puriman”ti.
“Nāhaṁ paṭibalo tayā vādinā saddhiṁ sallapituṁ;
sādhu, bhante, atthaṁ jappehī”ti.
“Na kho te, mahārāja, yujjati purimena vā pacchimaṁ, pacchimena vā puriman”ti. “Nāhaṁ paṭibalo tayā vādinā saddhiṁ sallapituṁ; sādhu, bhante, atthaṁ jappehī”ti.
Thero abhidhammasaṁyuttāya kathāya rājānaṁ milindaṁ saññāpesi—“idha, mahārāja, cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ, taṁsahajātā phasso vedanā saññā cetanā ekaggatā jīvitindriyaṁ manasikāroti evamete dhammā paccayato jāyanti, na hettha vedagū upalabbhati, sotañca paṭicca sadde ca …pe… manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṁ, taṁsahajātā phasso vedanā saññā cetanā ekaggatā jīvitindriyaṁ manasikāroti evamete dhammā paccayato jāyanti, na hettha vedagū upalabbhatī”ti.
Thero abhidhammasaṁyuttāya kathāya rājānaṁ milindaṁ saññāpesi—
“idha, mahārāja, cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ, taṁsahajātā phasso vedanā saññā cetanā ekaggatā jīvitindriyaṁ manasikāroti evamete dhammā paccayato jāyanti, na hettha vedagū upalabbhati, sotañca paṭicca sadde ca …pe…
manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṁ, taṁsahajātā phasso vedanā saññā cetanā ekaggatā jīvitindriyaṁ manasikāroti evamete dhammā paccayato jāyanti, na hettha vedagū upalabbhatī”ti.
Thero abhidhammasaṁyuttāya kathāya rājānaṁ milindaṁ saññāpesi—“idha, mahārāja, cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ, taṁsahajātā phasso vedanā saññā cetanā ekaggatā jīvitindriyaṁ manasikāroti evamete dhammā paccayato jāyanti, na hettha vedagū upalabbhati, sotañca paṭicca sadde ca …pe… manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṁ, taṁsahajātā phasso vedanā saññā cetanā ekaggatā jīvitindriyaṁ manasikāroti evamete dhammā paccayato jāyanti, na hettha vedagū upalabbhatī”ti.
“Kallosi, bhante nāgasenā”ti.
“Kallosi, bhante nāgasenā”ti.
“Kallosi, bhante nāgasenā”ti.
Vedagūpañho chaṭṭho.
Vedagūpañho chaṭṭho.