The Debating Hall

Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went up to the BuddhaBuddhaEl nombre dado a quien redescubre por sí mismo el sendero liberador del Dhamma, tras un largo período de haber sido olvidado por el mundo. Según la tradición, una larga línea de Buddhas se extiende hasta el pasado distante. El Buddha más reciente nació como Siddhattha Gotama en la India alrededor del año 500 a.e.c. Un joven bien educado y acomodado, renunció a su familia y su herencia principesca en la flor de la vida para buscar la verdadera libertad y el fin del sufrimiento (dukkha). Después de siete años de austeridades en el bosque, redescubrió el «camino medio» y alcanzó su meta, convirtiéndose en el Buddha.Ver en el glosario and exchanged greetings with him.When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side, and said to the Buddha:

Atha kho vacchagotto paribbājako yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi. Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho vacchagotto paribbājako bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went up to the Buddha and exchanged greetings with him.Atha kho vacchagotto paribbājako yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side, and said to the Buddha:Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho vacchagotto paribbājako bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

“Worthy Gotama, a few days ago several ascetics, brahmins, and wanderers who follow various other religions were sitting together in the debating hall, and this discussion came up among them:*Compare the similar passage at MN 77:6.3, which also introduces the six ascetic teachers.‘This Pūraṇa Kassapa leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people.When a disciple passes away, he declares thatthis one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.And as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he also declares thatthis one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

“Purimāni, bho gotama, divasāni purimatarāni sambahulānaṁ nānātitthiyānaṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ kutūhalasālāyaṁ sannisinnānaṁ sannipatitānaṁ ayamantarākathā udapādi: ‘ayaṁ kho pūraṇo kassapo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa. Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: “asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti. Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: “asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.

“Worthy Gotama, a few days ago several ascetics, brahmins, and wanderers who follow various other religions were sitting together in the debating hall, and this discussion came up among them:*Compare the similar passage at MN 77:6.3, which also introduces the six ascetic teachers.“Purimāni, bho gotama, divasāni purimatarāni sambahulānaṁ nānātitthiyānaṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ kutūhalasālāyaṁ sannisinnānaṁ sannipatitānaṁ ayamantarākathā udapādi: ‘This Pūraṇa Kassapa leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people.‘ayaṁ kho pūraṇo kassapo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa. When a disciple passes away, he declares thatSopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti. And as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he also declares thatYopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.

This bamboo-staffed ascetic Gosāla …the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan …Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta …Pakudha Kaccāyana …Ajita of the hair blanket leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people.When a disciple passes away, he declares thatthis one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.And as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he also declares thatthis one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

Ayampi kho makkhali gosālo …pe… ayampi kho nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto …pe… ayampi kho sañcayo belaṭṭhaputto …pe… *sañcayo → sañjayo (bj, sya-all, km, pts1ed) | belaṭṭhaputto → bellaṭṭhiputto (bj)ayampi kho pakudho kaccāno …pe… *pakudho → pakuddho (pts1ed) | kaccāno → kaccāyano (bj, pts1ed)ayampi kho ajito kesakambalo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa. Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: “asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti. Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: “asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.

This bamboo-staffed ascetic Gosāla …Ayampi kho makkhali gosālo …pe… the Jain ascetic of the Ñātika clan …ayampi kho nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto …pe… Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta …ayampi kho sañcayo belaṭṭhaputto …pe… *sañcayo → sañjayo (bj, sya-all, km, pts1ed) | belaṭṭhaputto → bellaṭṭhiputto (bj)Pakudha Kaccāyana …ayampi kho pakudho kaccāno …pe… *pakudho → pakuddho (pts1ed) | kaccāno → kaccāyano (bj, pts1ed)Ajita of the hair blanket leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people.ayampi kho ajito kesakambalo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa. When a disciple passes away, he declares thatSopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti. And as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he also declares thatYopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.

This ascetic Gotama leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people.When a disciple passes away, he declares thatthis one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.

Ayampi kho samaṇo gotamo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa. Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: “asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.

This ascetic Gotama leads an order and a community, and tutors a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, deemed holy by many people.Ayampi kho samaṇo gotamo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa. When a disciple passes away, he declares thatSopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.

But as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he doesn’t declare thatthis one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.Rather, he declares that they havecut off craving, cast off the fetters, and by rightly comprehending conceit have made an end of suffering.’I had doubt and uncertainty about that:‘How on earth can I understand the ascetic Gotama’s teaching?’”

Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tañca sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu na byākaroti: *Yopissa → yo ca khvassa (pts1ed)“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti. Api ca kho naṁ evaṁ byākaroti: “acchecchi taṇhaṁ, vivattayi saṁyojanaṁ, sammā mānābhisamayā antamakāsi dukkhassā”’ti. Tassa mayhaṁ, bho gotama, ahu deva kaṅkhā, ahu vicikicchā: ‘kathaṁ nāma samaṇassa gotamassa dhammo abhiññeyyo’”ti?

But as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he doesn’t declare thatYopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tañca sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu na byākaroti: *Yopissa → yo ca khvassa (pts1ed)this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti. Rather, he declares that they haveApi ca kho naṁ evaṁ byākaroti: cut off craving, cast off the fetters, and by rightly comprehending conceit have made an end of suffering.’“acchecchi taṇhaṁ, vivattayi saṁyojanaṁ, sammā mānābhisamayā antamakāsi dukkhassā”’ti. I had doubt and uncertainty about that:Tassa mayhaṁ, bho gotama, ahu deva kaṅkhā, ahu vicikicchā: ‘How on earth can I understand the ascetic Gotama’s teaching?’”‘kathaṁ nāma samaṇassa gotamassa dhammo abhiññeyyo’”ti?

“Vaccha, no wonder you’re doubting and uncertain.Doubt has come up in you about an uncertain matter.

“Alañhi te, vaccha, kaṅkhituṁ, alaṁ vicikicchituṁ. Kaṅkhanīye ca pana te ṭhāne vicikicchā uppannā.

“Vaccha, no wonder you’re doubting and uncertain.“Alañhi te, vaccha, kaṅkhituṁ, alaṁ vicikicchituṁ. Doubt has come up in you about an uncertain matter.Kaṅkhanīye ca pana te ṭhāne vicikicchā uppannā.

I describe rebirth for someone who grasps fuel, not for someone who does not.It’s like a fire which only burns with fuel, not without fuel.*The simile of the fire going out for lack of fuel is famously discussed with Vacchagotta in MN 72.In the same way I describe rebirth for someone who grasps fuel, not for someone who doesn’t grasp fuel.”

Saupādānassa khvāhaṁ, vaccha, upapattiṁ paññāpemi no anupādānassa. Seyyathāpi, vaccha, aggi saupādāno jalati, no anupādāno; evameva khvāhaṁ, vaccha, saupādānassa upapattiṁ paññāpemi, no anupādānassā”ti.

I describe rebirth for someone who grasps fuel, not for someone who does not.Saupādānassa khvāhaṁ, vaccha, upapattiṁ paññāpemi no anupādānassa. It’s like a fire which only burns with fuel, not without fuel.*The simile of the fire going out for lack of fuel is famously discussed with Vacchagotta in MN 72.Seyyathāpi, vaccha, aggi saupādāno jalati, no anupādāno; In the same way I describe rebirth for someone who grasps fuel, not for someone who doesn’t grasp fuel.”evameva khvāhaṁ, vaccha, saupādānassa upapattiṁ paññāpemi, no anupādānassā”ti.

“At such a time, I say that it’s fueled by the wind.For the wind is its fuel then.”

“Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye acci vātena khittā dūrampi gacchati, tamahaṁ vātūpādānaṁ paññāpemi. Vāto hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī”ti.

“At such a time, I say that it’s fueled by the wind.“Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye acci vātena khittā dūrampi gacchati, tamahaṁ vātūpādānaṁ paññāpemi. For the wind is its fuel then.”Vāto hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī”ti.

“When someone who is attached has laid down this body, Vaccha, and has not been reborn in one of the realms, I say they’re fueled by craving.For craving is their fuel then.”

“Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, tamahaṁ taṇhūpādānaṁ vadāmi. Taṇhā hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī”ti. *hotī”ti → hotīti …pe… (mr)

“When someone who is attached has laid down this body, Vaccha, and has not been reborn in one of the realms, I say they’re fueled by craving.“Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, tamahaṁ taṇhūpādānaṁ vadāmi. For craving is their fuel then.”Taṇhā hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī”ti. *hotī”ti → hotīti …pe… (mr)